Japan and Steel

[etprescottaz91]

Viewing a recent documentory on Japan's Pearl Harbor attack. The Japenese spy in Hawaii had told the Imperial navy that ship busting dive bombs would need to be used in addition to torpedoes due to the fact we kept destroyers tied up along side the battleships to prevent torpedo attacks. The attack was almost postponed due to a shortage of the steel required to build the new, needed dive bombs. Then the idea was advanced and implemented to use forteen inch shells off the Japenese Battleships and convert them into ship busting dive bombs. My thought on this, what could Japan possibly be thinking, not enough steel on hand to even fire your opening shot and your attacking a country, that at least the educated in Japan had known, possessed unlimited natural resources in our own backyard. Many historians have asked this same question, still comes to mind sometimes.

[Longcolt44]

I don't know that resources even came into play. If the Admiral that was heading the attack had decided to take another step and refuel his planes and go on to the mainland instead of turning back we might all be speaking Japanese now.

[etprescottaz91]

LC you are correct, Admiral Yamamoto should have refueled his planes and made a third strike to finish off our fuel storage facilities and airfields. He got nervous, the first wave pilots reported that that the U.S. carriers were not at Pearl Harbor as had been reported days before, his patrol planes could not find the U.S carriers and he knew that several hundred U.S. carrier planes were out there someplace and he was 3400 miles away from Japan. Send his planes off for a third strike and have our planes possibly attack his task force while unprotected, Yamoto played it safe and headed for home.

[klibben]

They attacked just because of the shortage - they were also low on oil and the US stopped selling them oil when they withdrew from the League of Nations and entered into pacts with Italy and Germany. Japan only had oil stockpiles to last something like 6 more months (mind you they were already actively engaged in the Sino-Japanese war), and knew the only way to get more oil was to attack the oil fields in the South Pacific (held by the Dutch mostly, but also British and French)... which were practically undefended because those nations were already being (or had already been) overrun by Germany. Therefore, the only thing in their way was the United States Navy which would surely come to the aid of the oil fields. Cripple the Pacific fleet, and the entire Pacific would crumble under the weight of the Imperial Japanese Navy. A brilliant plan really, had the carriers been at Pearl as expected the US may not have recovered, or at least not for many more years. Remember, it took almost 4 years just to take back most of the Pacific as it was... and the only reason that happened was because the third wave wasn't sent AND the carriers weren't at Pearl.

[Junk Yard Dog]

The idea was to blast us out of the war very quickly before we had time to use our resources against them, unrealistic at best, gambling at worst and they lost the toss. The US was gearing up for war in 1941, our factory's were already producing war material for Britain, Russia and the slowly expanding US forces, it was not the lazy days of 1939. They could have attacked the west coast with troops, and probably could have made a beachhead, and shelled some of the coastal city's, but inland penetration would have been problematic for them. The US population vastly outnumbered that of Japan, and that population was not like that of today. These were a tough people who were only just coming out of the Great Depression, many, if not most of them, especially in the west knew how to use firearms, and were accustomed to living under trying conditions. Millions of WW1 veterans were still alive and only in their 40's, the population as a whole was much more independent that that of today, they didn't look to the authorities to solve every little problem for them, they were not soft. Every town and village in their way would have fought the Japanese, every city would have become a Warsaw fighting to the bitter end. Then we have the supply line to consider, the North East here in the US had more industrial capacity in any one state than all of Japan, all that material would have been pouring into the defenders hands along with troops. Not three years later we were putting out enough material to supply more than two massive military forces fighting on opposite sides of the globe, as well as supplying free forces in France, Russia, North Africa, of course Britain, later on Italy entered on our side, and after D Day we had to equip most of the nations of Europe with weapons after the Germans were driven out. The Japanese had no real hope of standing up in the face of that kind of industrial might, and in fact we considered them secondary, diverting the bulk of our men and equipment to fight the Germans. Stupidity and desperation, and people willing to lead a nation down the road to national suicide, it need not have happened, but the Japanese leadership of the era wanted to take what was not theirs from any country that had what they needed, and what they needed was mostly materials for waging more war on others. They got what they had coming in the end.

[klibben]

Stupid - probably, but it was a matter of priorities. From our perspective of priorities, survival is numero uno. For the Japanese, it wasn't. So it looks very stupid from our point of view.

As everyone knows about the Germans using up all their resources on the Final Solution when they should have dedicated everything to the war effort, the Japanese were bogged down in their ideology of "Asia for the Asians," which they claimed meant kicking out all the Europeans. Not a bad idea when you get into the nationalistic line of thought ("America for the Americans" could easily be the subtitle to the Monroe Doctrine, so it's not like the Japanese were a bunch of radical fanatics about that one... although you could argue the American were radical fanatics, but I digress). Anyways, Japan took it upon themselves to kick out the Europeans (and American influences, although America had no definite "sphere of influence" or colony unlike the other major powers), and went ahead and decided the reason the Westerners were able to set up shop in Asia in the first place was because the other asians were too weak or inferior, and so the Japanese set out to take it upon themselves to govern the entire continent (well, what they conquered) in order to SECURE Asia for the Asians...

Had they not had that ideology that they NEEDED to conquer Asia, they probably could have avoided war with the US. Remember, there was no radical regime change in Japan as there was in Italy and Germany. The Japan that fought us in WWII was the same Japan that fought ALONGSIDE us in WWI (albeit stronger and more technologically advanced).

[Junk Yard Dog]

Japan wanted Asia for Japan, what they did to the Asian peoples native to the regions they took control of was every bit as bad as what the Nazi's did to the Slav, and Jewish peoples in the countries they overran. Nanking being a good example, and only one such. The Japanese treated the Chinese like we treated the American Indians in the west, only on a larger scale with much bigger kill numbers. The Japanese were as racist as any other people at that time, all others were below them, given more time, and a free hand they would have done their best to eliminate most of the Chinese, Burmese, Filipino, and so on peoples, Japans unit 731 was already experimenting with terrible manufactured diseases in China, using human beings as test subjects, and killing an estimated 600,000 Chinese, Koreans, and allied POW's as they went along. The entire story of Unit 731 is a stain on all of humanity and the worst part of it is that most of it was blacked out after the war with many of it's leading killers being brought to the states to start our own bio weapons program after WW2. I am surprised that China has not yet extracted it's pound of flesh from the Japanese considering the horrors that country rained down on them for almost 15 years of occupation. 731 used it's weapons against Asian peoples who were not Japanese, they planned to use them against the Russians, and if they could deliver them, against the US mainland. Their one attempt to use bio weapons against the US failed. In my opinion such a use, failed or not, of a strategic weapon against the US justified the use of atomic weapons against them above and beyond the thousands of lives their use saved among the US armed forces that would have had to invade the home islands. The 20th century was full of assholes of one sort or another, be they Japanese, German, Italian, or Russian, we were lucky that we did not have similar assholes assume leadership here in the US or the world would look much different today.

[klibben]

Oh yes, I know all about 731 and the Rape of Nanking.


To be honest, I think you are judging American handling of Indian affairs FAR too harshly if you compare it to the Japanese occupation of China and Korea. The Japanese literally killed for sport, I've read old newspaper accounts of lining up one two rows of 100 chinese men and then having contests to see which soldier could chop off the head of 100 chinese the fastest. This is only one day, one massacre, out of thousands. The Japanese were literally taught from birth that the Chinese need to be killed. I highly recommend Iris Chang's booke The Rape of Nanking, it's extremely well researched as well as depressing at how low humanity can slink. Iris actually committed suicide while working on a follow up book, she could not handle the over load of horrible stories she found.

Believe me, the Chinese still LOATHE Japan for what they did in WWII. China hates Japan more than any other country, and there are still protests and demands of apologies from Japan.

[Longcolt44]

" To be honest, I think you are judging American handling of Indian affairs FAR too harshly if you compare it to the Japanese occupation of China and Korea."

Read, "Bury My Heart at Wounded Knee" and rethink that.

[klibben]

No, I know full well of Wounded Knee. Read The Rape of Nanking and rethink your defense of that statement.

I'm not saying the US wasn't harsh on the natives, and I'm not defending them. But quite frankly Hitler and the SS look like nice guys compared to the Japanese in China and Korea. Wounded Knee was a mistake, and the jury is still out on who fired the first shot. For the sake of argument, I'll give you that the Americans probably fired it. Still, there was no systematic annihilation of the natives. Instead, the government pushed them onto reservations... although a harsh (and often deadly) move, it wasn't even intended to kill off the natives. The real problem was the lack of understanding the culture and way of life of the natives. There is also the issue of hostile natives, and all arguments about their reasons for attacking settlers aside, the natives often did randomly attack, raid, capture, kill, and kidnap innocent settlers. I know this just as well as anyone else on the board, as I live near the site of the Copus Hill Massacre and have read original documents describing the attack (including eye witness accounts of the only survivors). Reverend Copus was actually one of the most trusted friends of the Greentown Indians (who committed the attack). The Greentowns were also one of the friendliest and most peaceful (towards whites anyways) tribes on the frontier. Having said that, the Greentowns had somewhat just cause (their village was burnt while the men had gone off to war)... the only problem with their attack is they blamed Copus who knew nothing of the impending raid and was actually appalled at it.

Anywho I'm going off on a long rant getting a bit off track here. I'll still stand by my original statement that the US actions towards native Americans far from comparable to the Japanese actions in Asia. The Japanese didn't even care to relocate the Chinese or Koreans, they simply wanted them dead. The Nazis believed the Jews to be inferior humans, the Japanese however believed the Chinese to be animals - not humans. The American's simply wanted the native's land (and to not be attacked), some natives actually successfully assimilated into American society. Take a look at the "White Cherokee" tribes of the east.

[Junk Yard Dog]

The actions of the government against the native Americans was carried out on a much smaller scale than Japanese or German wartime actions. The Army in the west was never well funded, or very large, certainly nothing like the scale of the Army's that fought the States War. They were underpaid, under equipped, and many times poorly led, this left a great deal up the the State, and territorial Governors to deal with. Washington did not issue orders for the extermination of the Indians in the west, just their relocation, and they often acted in total ignorance of the cultures of the peoples involved. How these movements were carried out was often left up to local forces who were less that sympathetic to their Indian neighbors, and what ended up happening was not surprising. Government payments for Indian land were many times in the form of supplies, and these supply's were diverted by corrupt officials for their own use, treaty's broken by local settlers who acted on their own, or greedy officials acting far from the oversight of the government that sent them. Nasty things did happen, wounded knee was just one of the last of them, and so is better known. Germ warfare was used against the native Americans, not by the government, but by individuals, or small groups that wanted them gone for their own reasons. Settlers did start fights with the Indians in order to justify killing them and taking their land for themselves, and the government is guilty of turning a blind eye to most of it. What the Japanese did, and the Germans was to turn the full force of the state loose on the people of a conquered territory with the mission of exterminating them. At no time did the US government turn loose it's full force against the Native Americans, and no army was sent west with an edict to exterminate anyone. They were treated more like bandits than enemy soldiers. There was no US version of Unit 731, or Einsatzgruppen sent west, if there had been then there would be no native Americans left at all as their populations in the whole were at least equal, or less than the number of Chinese killed by 731 alone. There were atrocity committed against the Native Americans, but these were the actions of individuals, or small groups not the policy of our government. Not even in the Philippians during the terrible insurrection did we sink to the level of systematical exterminating the entire population, although both sides did do some horrible things. There were many things that happened during our nations westward expansion that we should not be proud of, but at least most of them were were the actions of individuals, and small groups not the policy of our people as a whole. What Unit 731, and the SS ( among many others) did is a stain on the soul of the Japanese, and the Germans as these were government sanctified activities.

[Junk Yard Dog]

The 20th century sucked, hundreds of millions of people dead because someone didn't like their religion, ethnicity, their politics, or they were just in the way. The century of Genocide, maniacs in power, and war involving the entire planet, it's amazing we made it to the 21st century without blowing ourselves up, but we must remain and see on that one. Other eras had their bad times, the wars of the ancient world, the inquisition, the crusades, the 100 years war, the 30 years war, the Napoleonic wars, and so on, but it's the sheer numbers involved in the 20th century's horrors that make the others pale by comparison. We lost 620,000 men in the States War, the Germans burned 6,000,000 people because they didn't like them, the Japanese killed 600,000 people just to test the effectiveness of their bio weapons, Stalin murdered 20,000,000 ( low estimate) so he could sleep better at night. On, and on, the numbers and horrors are staggering, mind numbing, look into that abyss long enough and you lose all faith in humanity.

[klibben]

Agreed JYD.

One quick note though: most estimates put the holocaust numbers at 12,000,000 victims killed. 6,000,000 were Jews, the other 6 were homosexuals, political prisoners, gypsies, blacks, criminals, etc.

[etprescottaz91]

I needed to think about this for awhile, for starters I plan on reading both books mentioned, Bury My Heart at Wounded Knee and Iris Chang's book The Rape of Nanking. I am familiar with both American history and the treatment of Natives as well as Japanese history, I like Arisakas and all Imperial equipment from the Chrysanthemum Empire for one thing, though trapdoors are alright also. Thanks for a good book recommendation all.
My seventy five year old mother has told me that newsreel footage she saw as a little girl , footage of Japanese soldiers bayoneting children in China, official Japanese state propaganda footage, the stuff Japanese aired for the Japanese people. This newsreel footage described gave her extreme nightmares as a little girl (this was the 1940's) and gave her night mares throughout her life. Japan was a country that filmed its soldiers bayoneting children, state policy and not afraid to hide it.
This was I believe about the 60th anniversary of the A-Bomb dropping that my mom shared this story with me. My old peace loving Bible holding mom went on to tell me that any country that films its soldiers killing innocent children; well as far as the A-Bomb, Japan had it coming. Unexpected insight from someone who witnessed all that history as a child.
I understand that official U.S. policy towards the Native Americans was horrible and unjustified during the 19th century and much of the 20th century. Nope the Japanese treatment of occupied China was worse, the sheer numbers alone. China still hates Japan to this very day. China will not even allow Japanese leaders to pay official tribute at war memorials in Japan without lodging diplomatic protest. Though on a side note, the U.S. government allowed small pox infected blankets to be given to Navajo Indians for a small pox experiment back in the late 1800's and the result, a lot of people died of smallpox. The Japanese Unit 731 liked to play with small pox in China as well, the Geneva Convention was not really a consideration then for a country that films its own atrocities. Interesting historical parallel with the small pox though.
So it was really nice to see a discussion forum where people of differing opinion recommend books to each other as opposed to degenerating into calling each other fascist whale loving communist, I think you get the idea.
Back to the steel/third wave opinion. After the surprise sucker punch attack Yamamoto really should have followed up and finished off our fleet because China was the mineral lifeline and so were the sea lanes. After what Yamamoto pulled he had better make sure he never saw a U.S. warship again plane or anything else, well eventually he did and never lived to write a memoir.

[Junk Yard Dog]

" fascist whale loving communist"

I have seen some of that footage your mother remembers. Not the bayoneting babies part, although there were dead baby's shown aplenty. Public executions, shootings and beheading carried out by Japanese soldiers and the footage shot by the Japanese for the Japanese newsreels, really horrible shite. The Germans did similar things, it was officially forbidden for the death squads in the east to film, or photo what they were doing, but it went on anyway with a blind eye turned to it, the Japanese couldn't be bothered to attempt to hide what they were doing. I had family fighting in both Europe, and the Pacific, even a great Uncle who was an intelligence officer on Pattons staff. They saw first hand the horrors of the Nazi's and the Japanese and never forgot any of it, they made sure I knew the truth of what went on, from the blood crusted steel braided whip my Uncle found in one of Dachau's killing rooms ( the least horrible thing he found at that place were even Patton lost it), to the piles of beheaded American prisoners of war another relative witnesses in the Philippians. If true justice had been handed out after that war I suspect the world would be light a few countrys today.